i’ve been really appreciative of the discussion that has stemmed from my posting of a video on facebook. i posted the keith olberman video as he discussed gay marriage and the proposition 8 vote in califronia with a short statement below saying “great video clip i used in sunday school this morning”.
I wouldn’t have thought that it would get the attention, discussion, or insight that it did from friends on facebook…and yes, that is a new category. “friends on facebook” is not necessarily the same as “friends”. it’s helped to challenge my thinking, made me question my beliefs, and dig into the word more. having a discussion in sunday school with 20 high school students isn’t the same as posting a video on the web and discussing it with others from around the country. frankly, i didn’t think it would get looked at all, let alone commented on.
what resulted, both on facebook and in my face-to-face discussions has been awesome. i post it below, along with the comments that have been left for you now. Hopefully it will help you think through some issues and make you question yourself. we don’t have to agree at the end of the discussion. the beauty is in the journey and growth that results from the struggle to understand.
“Damien 4:19pm December 7
Bob, this is nothing but emotive rhetoric and exemplary of KO’s lack of knowledge of scripture and Christ’s teachings. I’m sure you meant well by bringing this into Sunday school, but I’m sorry, the church is no place for Olberman’s polemic diatribes.
If you are interested in hearing some useful commentary on Prop 8, Christianity, and it’s position on homosexuality and other sexual sin that you can use in your Sunday teaching, I would be happy to provide you with some.”
“Rob at 5:30pm December 7
Damien, I’m open to hearing what you have to share, although the lesson series is done now. I’ll process it. Your stating that Olberman “doesn’t have a place in the church” isn’t acceptable. Your statement reeks of arrogance and appears to be of the mindset that “I’m right, you’re wrong”.
I debate that anything and everything has a place in … Read Morethe church. To engage in intelligent, reflective discussion is to invite experience and reason into the understanding of Christ into our world today. To shut something out, just because you disagree with either what is being said, or the way it is said, is to deprive people of growth, and to deprive the opportunity for development in understanding our world doesn’t fly.
But, sure, feel free to send stuff my way and I’ll look. I’m always open to new ideas.”
“Damien at 5:44pm December 7
The church’s position on homosexuality is not new. What IS new, however, is certain Christians trying to twist scriptural interpretation to somehow validate their own sin. My disagreement with what Olberman is saying stems directly from scripture that speaks out against it! My views don’t sway with the cultural wind.
I disagree that anything … Read Moreand everything has a place in the church. While the church accepts and welcomes sinners of all stripes, it should not condone their sinful behavior in any way. I am completely open to an intellectually honest discussion about Christ in our world today. But there is not a shred of evidence in scripture that God condones sexual sin of any kind. Any argument to the contrary is an abject distortion of the truth.
So, you might want to clarify exactly what you mean that “anything and everything has a place in the church.” “Anything and everything” encompasses a lot of unsavory things. “
“Rob at 9:40am December 8
You say the church’s stance…as if there’s only one stance. That’s the initial issue with numerous topics. It’s the “I’m right, you’re wrong” mentality that plagues christianity. Using the word twist only further enhances the negative spin placed on the issue.
I’m not sure if you’re debating the issue of homosexuality in general, or if you’… Read Morere trying to fight the gay marriage issue. I do not advocate the church supporting any activity which is sinful. I also wouldn’t argue that God condones sin. The question is what is sin and what isn’t sin. I’m not saying if homosexuality is or is not. I’m simply saying that we need to love one another, no matter what the issue is.
Unsavoriness is ok. Granted it has to be appropriate for the age group and the place a person is in his/her faith journey, but beyond that, I open to any discussion with anyone on any topic.”
Derek at 10:00am December 8
Well now I’m not one to get into religous dialogue, or quote scripture as I personally can’t remember some 2000 pages of little text. However, I do believe somewhere in the Bible it does say man is not to judge as God judges everyone in the end. Therefore, whether you hate gay marriages, Jehova witnesses, George W or A Rod, in the end we are to love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek.”
“Damien at 10:45am December 8
Bob, I’m trying to keep this focused because it seems we’re hitting in a few different places. I’m trying to keep this focused. It seems to me that you are attempting, by saying there is more than one way to read scripture, that homosexuality is not a sin. I find that astounding considering there are NUMEROUS scriptures throughout the bible that… Read More speak out against it.
So, as for what is and is not a sin, the Bible is actually pretty clear on certain things, especially regarding sexuality.
And I was unclear before what you were saying regarding anything and everything being welcome in the church. If you are talking about adult topics, then I agree that in the right forum that is okay. I misunderstood you thinking you were saying that any kind of lifestyle or behvior should be welcomed by the church. Obviously, I disagree with that.
What church do you go to?”
“Jen at 3:01pm December 8
Why should homosexuality be just an adult topic, when it is something youth and children even face everyday? This can be because they are learning about their own sexuality, or they may have parents who are in love, either in an opposite sex or same sex relationship. I think it is a great topic to discuss, whether it is right or wrong, it’s a … Read Morepart of our reality, and it’s not something you can make go away! I wish I had been there for that conversation because I bet the youth had some great things to contribute. Also, by being willing to discuss the ‘tough’ issues Rob, you are a safe place for youth to come to, to be able to discuss, ask questions, and have someone for them to listen to. Great work!”
“Valerie at 4:05pm December 8
I like a lot of things about this video. Overall, I feel that he was trying to pull at heart strings in a rather manipulative manner, which I’m not really a fan of. But, I do think that he hit on a major issue which is a rather vocal) segment of Christianity who seems to portray God’s wrath and judgment on this sinful world and has almost lost … Read Moresight of His love and mercy. (Somewhat like the Pharisees, I imagine) Our mission is to reach the lost and show them God’s great love and let God do the changing and restoring. How on earth is telling the gay community that they are a bunch of sinners and they can’t do what they feel they have a right to going to make them suddenly repent and follow God?! It just won’t happen! Those who may be on the fence will see a religion of hate and oppose it that much more! We need to be loving the gay community and show them that we are ALL broken and we ALL need a Savior! The truth is, they are no worse than you or I. They are just more open about it…..”
Damien at 5:45pm December 8
Jen, I never said that homosexuality shouldn’t be discussed in the church. I think it most certainly be discussed, or more specifically, all issues dealing with sexuality should be discussed, especially how it is viewed in the eyes of God.
Valerie, I agree with you that we have a responsibility to love one another, but that doesn’t mean … Read Moreignoring or validating one another’s sin in the process. Overcoming sexual sin (and sin of all kinds) needs to be framed in scriptural context (i.e. what does the Bible say about the sin) and Christ as the Savior who will forgive us of our sins if I accept him into our heart. And yes, even homosexuality can be overcome with Christ’s love and teachings.
Donnie at 11:51pm December 8
Rob I have to give you kudos on the video & the discussion on here. The truth of the matter is straight people will never really understand what is going on in the hearts, minds, & souls of people who are gay AND Christian. I truely wish it was as easy as overcoming things with Christ’s love & teachings but that just isn’t so. Rob you will … Read Moreinspire those kids to love others & think outside of the typical realm of the church. They will see the church as it should be, a place for comfort & education not the business that it has become. You will inspire those Christian kids that we see on tv that have committed suicide & people are just shrugging their shoulders saying, “Why?” Hello, they were gay & they couldn’t handle the pressures of dealing with their sexual feelings & the harshness of the church community. Rob, thank you for speaking out & letting people know that God is love & that love is more important than anything. Love comes first even before faith & hope. Great job Rob.
Wade at 1:33am December 9
Whatever anyone’s personal feelings are about homosexuality it’s pretty obvious that homosexuals are not going to decide to up and become straight. And frankly, they shouldn’t have to. People have every right to disagree with a “gay lifestyle” but people have just as much right to live said lifestyle. If you think homosexuality is a sin, by all … Read Moremeans go to a church that says, “No gays allowed.” Religion and church are your choices to make. That doesn’t make it okay for people to tell homosexuals that they cannot get married/enter into civil unions. Freedom of religion is a great thing. It means that we all have the right to choose what we believe and practice. None of us can be made to subscribe to a faith we think is phony. It also means that nobody’s religion should dictate what people who don’t subscribe to it can do. The US has already done the whole, “one law for this group, another law for that one,” thing in the past. I’d like to think we can agree that Jim Crow laws were bad.
